[Moon-net] Will things ever change? Pls clarify!

Sun Feb 3 14:24:00 CST 2008

To make it more clear for me:

A) I am using JT65, look for the logger and see
XYZ calling on a certain QRG (selfspotting),
I call him, we exchange the necessary QSO infos,
I am not using the logger during the QSO.

B) I know from my paper list, that station XYZ is normally
using the QRG 144.139MHz.
I see him and call him, we again exchange the infos.
There is no logger info at all, my computer is switched off.

Which QSO is valid? A or B or none?

C) I am using CW, see XYZ selfspotting in the CW logger,
call him and fortunately we make a QSO

D) XYZ sends me an E-mail asking for a CW sked.
We arrange by e-mail (not snail mail) the details like
QRG and date/time, finally we make a QSO.

Which QSO is valid? C or D or none?

Thanks in advance for enlightment,

73s Bodo/DL2FCN

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "on4dpx Kenny" <on4dpx at skynet.be>
To: <moon at moonbounce.info>; <moon-net at list-serv.davidv.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Moon-net] [Moon] Will things ever change?

> Interesting topic .
>
> I totally agree with Jimmy , Peter , Petros and many others .
> The rules should not only be used during contest but during every qso .
> Contest or not , exchanging qso information via a non radio path should 
> make
> the qso NOT VALID !
>
> Those who says that such qso's are valid should take down their big arrays 
> ,
> turn off their radio's and get a couple of computers ...
>
> If still not convinced I have various screenshots from a recent activation
> (BY7PP) showing extremely high "chat activity" with a lot of qso 
> information
> being exchanged and afterwards telling that they worked over 40 qso's ! If
> someone would like to read the screenshots drop me a mail and I will 
> forward
> it .
>
> It's a milestone that RSGB banned them , unfortunately ARRL don't want to
> spend much time on this subject as their responses to various emails
> concerning this problem are very vague , they know whats going on but it
> seems that they don't want to solve it .
>
> Best regards,
> Kenny ON4DPX
>
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: moon-net-bounces at list-serv.davidv.net
> [mailto:moon-net-bounces at list-serv.davidv.net] Namens SV3AAF Petros
> Verzonden: zondag 3 februari 2008 16:28
> Aan: moon at moonbounce.info; moon-net at list-serv.davidv.net
> Onderwerp: Re: [Moon-net] [Moon] Will things ever change?
>
> As I can see at the "CQ-CONTEST" link, the condemnation of loggers and
> selfspotting is widespread with many Hams getting fed up with it.
> I also share the opinion that loggers and selfspotting do not fit in Radio
> Contesting and hope ARRL and other contest organizers will ban them just
> like RSGB did.
> 73 de Petros sv3aaf
>
> Peter Sundberg <sm2cew at telia.com> wrote: Interesting that you bring this 
> up
> Jimmy, because there has been a big
> discussion over the same issues on the CQ Contest reflector recently. The
> discussion there was regarding QSO liason via loggers, during an ongoing
> contest.
>
> See 
> http://lists.contesting.com/pipermail/cq-contest/2008-January/date.html
> and
> scroll down to the end of the month where the subjec lines start saying
> "Selfspotting...." and later on "Using ON4KST-chat".
>
> Most all of the postings say that internet loggers are not a part of a
> contest.
> I share that opinion, of course.
> I also hope that the ARRL will reckognize that selfspotting and logger
> liason
> is not radio contesting, regardless of band involved.
>
>
> By the way, the January logs for the 2m Dubus CW EME Event is presented at
> http://www.sm2cew.com/aw_logs.html
> Thanks to all participating stations, see you for the next event on:
>
> February 16 1230-1530 GMT
> February 16 2030-2330 GMT
>
> 73 de Peter SM2CEW
> www.sm2cew.com
> http://blog.sm2cew.com
>
>
>
> At 14:28 2008-02-01 , jimmyv at hol.gr wrote:
>>Hello All
>>
>>I came across a very interesting decision of RSGB for its Contest
>>rules on 6m-4m-2m-70cm Contests.
>>This clearly shows that in the internet / chatrooms days we are living
>>(totally true for the absolute majority of JT65 EME assisted QSOs on
>>an everyday basis for the last 6-7 yrs), they are still Radio Amateur
>>Unions and Contest Organizers (e.g. RSGB, DUBUS, REF etc.)  acting
>>responsibly,  putting Radio as their first priority.
>>And prohibit Assisted Class and chatroom QSOs in a Contest.
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
>>Here is the info:
>>http://www.vhfcc.org/rules/08rules/General.htm
>>
>>Section i:
>>i. The active use (posting messages, arranging skeds, self spotting
>>etc) of the DX Cluster and other spotting networks (including internet
>>facilities for example ON4KST) to assist an entry to a contest on 6m,
>>4m, 2m and 70cm is banned in all RSGB contests with the exception of
>>three IARU Region 1 co-ordinated contests (50MHz Trophy in June,
>>144MHz Trophy in September and 432MHz to 248GHz IARU in October) and
>>the 144MHz Marconi contest in November where permitted by the IARU
>>rules for these contests. You may spot a DX station as long as your
>>operating frequency is not given. A list of do's and don'ts can be
>>found here http://www.vhfcc.org/rules/08rules/dods.html
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
>>
>>The list of do's and don'ts for RSGB related Contests could still be
>>useful to all modes, in the context of new ARRL EME Contest rules,
>>with NO Assisted class.
>>
>>Pardon me but I am really troubled with questions i want to share with
>>you: I REALLY WONDER WILL ARRL EVER  DO THE SAME FOR THE EME
>>COMPETITION? Take out Assisted class? Bring back the focus to Radio,
>>the challenge to the operator, the thrill of Random EME operation?
>>
>>Because even though Assisted is intended for new to EME and/or QRP
>>stations (by the way such class never existed in the cw days !!! for a
>>far more difficult mode of operation on moonbounce), in ARRL EME
>>Competition it is fully used by experienced, average, qro, etc.
>>stations in digital mode.
>>
>>I do understand the reasoning and arguments of QRP and new to
>>moonbounce stations. I really do. But pls allow me to say that they
>>claim they need help only because they ''were brought up'' by the
>>majority of their fellow logger ops this way. It is the Teachers'
>>fault - influence who put them in this norm from day 1.
>>
>>However, in the past software random digital tool development has been
>>released for those working digital, start working on random. This has
>>been MAP65. A paper on Random QSO practises had been published. Both,
>>by Joe K1JT. In the latter, examples on how random digital QSOs can be
>>made and examples of frequency segments for CQ callers and listeners,
>>were given. Jeremy W7EME had suggested the same, several times, in the
>>past. Will these suggestions ever be implemented? Some stations went
>>on further working digital Unassisted (minority) in recent yrs
>>Contests, developing various ways to be more effective, as they saw
>>fit. Congrats to all for taking the lead trying to improve their
>>station and help others!
>>But why ARRL has introduced Assisted class since it is used for other
>>purposes? Why should it remain?
>>
>>Could you tell me why in the cw only days, such class never existed?
>>For any operator, qrp/qro, new/old, whoever. Why cw Contest QSOs 99%
>>take place on random? Why can't we have a Radio - not an Internet -
>>ARRL Contest without exceptions?
>>
>>Those who claim fun as their first priority regardless of anything
>>else, or those who, for their own reasons, can only operate Assisted
>>6m-2m-70cm-23cm, they could ask ARRL to organize a separate rallye
>>type of EME event where everything is allowed to maximize their
>>beloved QSO numbers. Why not?
>>
>>Final note:I totally understand the need of Specific forms of
>>assistance required for 13cm (current frequencies allocation, doppler
>>shift, multiple feeds etc.) and above bands for all modes of
>>operation. Therefore, this is not a topic of this discussion.
>>
>>73
>>Jimmy SV1BTR
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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